Spout out?

[bobtodd]

I just got done reading a huge thread on the Corral about setting timing and keeping the distributor spout out. Has anyone tried this? I have heard about this before but never really thought much of it until I read the thread. It sounds like a lot of people are seeing good things happen when doing this. Just thought I would check around here and see if anyone local has messed around with it. I am going to try it out myself.

Heres the thread if you want to check it out. Pretty interesting.

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257283&perpage=35&pagenumber=1

[drag79stang]

From a dealership technicians point of view, this seems kind of stupid. But then again, I don't deal with 'modded' efi vehicles. You've got a locked timing then. I can't imagine, setting your timing at (for instance), 32 degrees, and having it there ALL the time. Hard starting, ya think?...............
Seems kinda silly to me, but obviously someone's doing it..................or running different ignition, (read timing adjusters/limiters), on efi systems.
Why would you want to take out the pcm's ability to change/alter the timing, based on engine load/rpm/temp, etc, etc, etc?

Just plain odd..................................

[lv2xlr8]

my post was deleted or missing?

In my notch I checked my timing and forgot to plug it back in, on the test drive the car ran like crap. Sucked too cause I left the spout in the engine bay, when I got back it was gone, went to the Junk yard to get another.

This is the first I heard of the Idea to run spout out. IMO I think you will always get better results with it in. :thumbs_up

[Greg@GLD]

That discussion is really for blown applications. You'll end up with hard start problems. Somebody made a switch to use for starting, the spout is just a shunt....

[Greg@GLD]

my post was deleted or missing?




We had a little database issue yesterday, sorry if your post was lost...

[MAT88GT]

its no different than locking out the timing on a mechanical distributor, but the eec does a fine job of managing timing

[bobtodd]

Alot of people are claiming to have no start up problems and have even seen their car run smoother and better. I guess I'll just have to see if it works with my car or not. Then maybe I wont have to run a btm....which is the reason I was looking at the thread in the first place.

[Greg@GLD]

When dd you get a blower Bob??

[1slo5.0]

When dd you get a blower Bob??


uh oh.......sounds like the cat is out of the bag

[lv2xlr8]

We had a little database issue yesterday, sorry if your post was lost...

Yeah I saw that post after I was in here... No biggie...

When I had the spout out on my Notch I was supercharged (procharger) it still felt like less power than when the spout is in.

[BlackLX]

This is an intresting idea...I suppose if you have a BTM this wouldn't affect you though.

[bobtodd]

When dd you get a blower Bob??

I just picked it up last night :rockon: .....a Powerdyne....easy install, no tapping the oil pan etc. If this little venture doesnt work I'll sell it and go full speed ahead with the bigger shots of the nitrous. I'm really hoping it will work though. I think I may have a big tuning headache ahead of me but it's something I want to try out. It came with a powerpipe and a blow off valve which I didnt realize I was getting until I opened up the box, so that was cool.

I was going to buy a btm but I figure I will try out this method of pulling the spout and see how it works with my car first. If it doesnt work (hard starting, driveability, etc.)I will be buying a btm. It's something free to try. I'm just wondering how much timing I am going to have to pull out of my car with full boost. I know that my effective compression(if my static compression is near 11:1) with 6lbs of boost will have the same effective compression as running a stock motor with 12lbs of boost. I'm not quite sure if the two are even comparable?? Alot of people running that much boost are setting their timing around 20 degrees with the spout out so that's where I think I will start at. I guess I have awhile until I am at that point though. I have to get a smog delete pulley, poly locks, a 6# pulley, and a few other minor things before this will all go in and get buttoned up. We'll see how it goes.

[bobtodd]

This is an intresting idea...I suppose if you have a BTM this wouldn't affect you though.


You can do it with or without a btm Mike.

[Mark302]

It isn't worth it. I honestly don't understand why those guys on the Corral do it. I have talked to some really big name Ford guys and they told me that it makes no sense at all for a street car.

[Kool Rock Steady]

I had my spout out for 5+ years and I liked the power I had from it. I had to get timing tape since the stock balancer doesn't have timing marks that high. One thing I was always told was to rev it to 3k and then set your timing with the 3k rpm.

[bobtodd]

With the spout out it sounds like the timing will be held in one spot. That way if I am running my timing at 20 degrees with the spout out(with boost) the computer will not advance it any further than that. Then you wont get possible detonation or blown head gaskets from the timing adjusting further than what I would want it to. That was how I took what they were saying over on the Corral. Now dont get me wrong....just because I read it over there doesnt mean that I follow it like the mustang bible. I just thought it was an interesting way of knowing where my timing would be at max boost....no guessing. No btm pulling timing. No eec advancing timing.
I havent tried this yet...just thought I would get some other opinions over here.

[Kool Rock Steady]

With the spout out it sounds like the timing will be held in one spot. That way if I am running my timing at 20 degrees with the spout out(with boost) the computer will not advance it any further than that. Then you wont get possible detonation or blown head gaskets from the timing adjusting further than what I would want it to. That was how I took what they were saying over on the Corral. Now dont get me wrong....just because I read it over there doesnt mean that I follow it like the mustang bible. I just thought it was an interesting way of knowing where my timing would be at max boost....no guessing. No btm pulling timing. No eec advancing timing.
I havent tried this yet...just thought I would get some other opinions over here.

I set mine at 22 total before I had a dyno tune

[bobtodd]

Yeah, I'll do some messing around with it to see what works best. I probably still have a few weeks ahead of me before I'll probably get to that point though.

[Kool Rock Steady]

Do you have an aftermarket Ignition box? I'd recommend the Mallory hyfire 6. Lot's more features then the digital 6 and has a boost retard built in

[bobtodd]

I've got an MSD 6A....nothing fancy. I probably will end up getting a btm down the road.

[Greg@GLD]

Let me ask you this Larry/Bob:
What about part throttle, lower-end throttle response and conditions when not under boost? I think you are looking at something that a guy who runs "ragged edge" might want to do to avoid popping a head gasket. In reality, if you tune your car/set it up properly, you will never have a problem. A 6 PSI powerdyne, in all honesty, is not really going to create a situation where you would have to worry about this. I'll go so far as to say that you do not even need a BTM for only 6 PSI of boost.

Got an S-trim and want to run 14 PSI? Ok, this might be something to look at, but for a street driven mild combo, you should not have any worries if you follow simple cautions and don't go crazy with base timing.

[bobtodd]

Nearly 11:1 though with 6lbs of boost is a little different. I will need a btm or some sort of retard I would think. Alot of the people in the thread who have tried this said that their part throttle, lower-end throttle response and conditions were much better. No bucking when cruising at lower rpm's, etc. Quicker throttle response and no hesitation between shifts.

I'm not siding with this. Just thought I would try it out and get your opinions.

[Greg@GLD]

It sounds like you're sold on this, so you might as well give it a try Bob. Just remember that when you assemble a combo, the total package is most important. Why go with such high compression with boost? You're not building a top-fuel dragster here. When I built my blower combo, I went with 64CC heads (low comp) anticipating the boost. I suppose I could have went with higher compression heads and took risks with reliability. But then, I didn't have a forged bottom end either, so your thinking might be different in that regard.

If you are really worried about detonating, you shouldn't be running that high of a compression ratio with boost anyway. The chances of rattling are much greater, no matter where you set your timing.

Whatever you do, good luck with your setup.

[bobtodd]

I'm not sold on anything. I just figured I'd get some people's input from this site. I am going to try it. That doesnt mean it will work for my car or that it's the answer to making a blower work for my combo. I realize this and I know that my setup isnt ideal for boost. I knew this when I bought the car and didnt have intentions of putting a blower on it. I'm not trying to argue with you Greg...you asked about part throttle, throttle response, etc. and I just stated what I had read about from the people who had posted after trying it out. I appreciate the input...especially from someone who has had alot of experience over the years with mustangs.

Who else has tried this out?

[1slo5.0]

I ran with the spout out whenever I sprayed my car. I didn't want the computer to get stupid and advance timing while I was spraying. For street use, leave the spout in. I ran about 30 degrees total when I was spraying 150hp on it. That was with a 10.2:1 engine on 110 octane when spraying.

I'm not sold on the idea of the car being more responsive with the spout out. I have tried this several times on several different cars and combos. If you can run full advance (32-36 degrees) it will be plenty responsive and powerful but if you are running a power adder and are going to leave timing out to compensate for full boost you are going to sacrafice low end power and throttle response.

Also Bob, do you know for sure your engine is 11:1? The reason I ask is piston manufacturers advertise compression ratios based on a zero decked block (piston flush with the deck surface). Alot of people don't specify to the machine shop they want the block zero decked and alot of machine shops won't do it with out being instructed to do it. If your block was not zero decked you might have 9.25:1 or so. There are many other variables too such as chamber size and head gasket thickness. With out plugging all of the numbers into a formula, you really can't be sure of what compression ratio you have.

[Greg@GLD]

I'm not sold on anything. I just figured I'd get some people's input from this site. I am going to try it. That doesnt mean it will work for my car or that it's the answer to making a blower work for my combo. I realize this and I know that my setup isnt ideal for boost. I knew this when I bought the car and didnt have intentions of putting a blower on it. I'm not trying to argue with you Greg...you asked about part throttle, throttle response, etc. and I just stated what I had read about from the people who had posted after trying it out. I appreciate the input...especially from someone who has had alot of experience over the years with mustangs.

Who else has tried this out?





I didn't think we were arguing dude. :D We're having a discussion. Big difference. "Arguing" is when there's animosity and flames. "Debating" is presenting a lot of info for or against. In all honesty, nothing I've said is a strong enough argument against what you are contemplating.
I've said enough anyway, so see how it works out for you and then when someone else asks about it, you'll be in a better position to offer your views, because you tried it.

[Kool Rock Steady]

I agree about not needing a btm but people were discussing it. I honestly could tell the low end and mid range with the spout out. Remember I said I rev'd the engine to 3k and set it. Kinda like the way old vacuum advance units need to be set. Does it matter? I'm not sure but I really did notice the power I gained. It's not ragged edge. I drove before the blower with 38 total timing and only ran 89 octane. Never even thought about it

[bobtodd]

I didn't think we were arguing dude. We're having a discussion. Big difference. "Arguing" is when there's animosity and flames. "Debating" is presenting a lot of info for or against. In all honesty, nothing I've said is a strong enough argument against what you are contemplating.
I've said enough anyway, so see how it works out for you and then when someone else asks about it, you'll be in a better position to offer your views, because you tried it.

Thats cool Greg. :beer: I know you are here to help and give your input and I appreciate it all:) We'll see what happens.

As far as my compression Darrel, I have no clue what it's really at. I have what info. the previous owner gave me and thats about it. I was told the pistons were 10.5:1 and I figured the smaller chambers would create a little more compression. In all honesty I hope the compression is much lower...which will let me play a little more with the timing. We'll see.

[bobtodd]

I know my set-up is really far from ideal for a blower. I want it to work really bad but in the back of my mind I know it may not happen. I am going to try all I can...spout out, spout in, btm, racing fuel, getting it on the dyno, etc. to make it try and work.

If you see a post from me in the near future about how awesome a 150 shot of nitrous feels, you'll know what happened to my blower attempt. :beer:

[Greg@GLD]

6 PSI is manageable, give it shot. If you pop a gasket, lesson learned. It might work out ok, see where this adventure takes you. :D

[bobtodd]

This is awesome!!....1966 289 heads/bracket for the supercharger..... :thud:

This idea was never meant to work...period :HittingHe

[bobtodd]

Shouldve bought those 9333's I just sold!

Autozone will keep me supplied with those :beer:

[Greg@GLD]

Did you already buy this blower Bob?

[Greg@GLD]

Accessory bolt holes are drilled in different locations, no thermactor inserts most likely...

[bobtodd]

I've had the blower for a week now. I finally got a chance to work on it tonight. Three of the four holes for the bracket line up...one doesnt. The fourth hole is half a bolt off(its the highest hole up on the head).The bracket is solid with three bolts. Yes, I know...half ass. It was designed for four bolts. Everything else should work. I am still trying it. Too late to turn back now. Waiting for a stock crank pulley, smog delete pulley, upper radiator hose, and my poly locks. Then hopefully I'll get some detonation blow a head gasket, and sell my car.

Joking!! I seriously cant wait to get this on my car and turn the key over.

[Greg@GLD]

Then hopefully I'll get some detonation blow a head gasket, and sell my car.


Change to say "Got addicted to boost but now I want a real blower so I'm getting a Vortech or Procharger!"

:D

Keep plugging along. Danno mentioned the iron heads because they are less forgiving than Aluminum with regard to detonation. You can usually get away with a little higher compression when you run aluminum. Since you want higher compression and run an iron head to boot, expect to pop something sooner or later, perhaps not with a 6 PSI pulley, but 9 PSI- I'd say look out!

[1slo5.0]

I bought a used Paxton supercharger off ebay 2 years ago. It came with a 6 lb pulley. Me being the addict that I am wanted more out of it so I took a spare aluminum alternator pulley that I had and modified it. :D I drilled the hole bigger to fit the shaft and cut 2 keyways in it. WOW! What an improvement. I instantly had 15lbs of boost when I stepped it down. However, the engine was a touch over 10:1 and I turned the Felpro wire loc gaskets into wet noodles.


Moral of the story......Don't push it to hard Bob or you will be replacing parts when you should be driving the car. Stay at 6lbs and be very conservative with timing.

[1slo5.0]

I'm pretty hardcore when it comes to trying to go fast.

[Greg@GLD]

Darrell you animal! :D

What probably did you in was not the 15 PSI of boost, it was probably a HOT 15 PSI as in 300 degree charge temps. :D You went WAY beyond the useable efficiency of a Paxton (assuming it was one of those ball drive units???) was spinning that impeller at an incredibly high rate of speed and it wasn't designed for it.

[1slo5.0]

Yes it was a ball type junker. It was spinning the impeller so fast it wouldn't idle. There was so much turbulence in the air inlet that the mass air flow sensor didn't function properly. It ran like an ethiopian chasing a donut wide open though!

[Greg@GLD]

Reviving this thread because of research I am doing.
Anderson Ford PMS2004- eliminates need for a BTM and sort of does what the "spout out" trick does but is more precise. You can use the "stand alone" engine control function of the PMS, and tell the system that at XX PSI you want XX timing PERIOD. You aren't telling the EEC to retard XX degrees for every X lb. of boost, you are "direct tuning" the system for a specific timing event relative to boost pressure, which I think is pretty cool. You also have the option to customize startup timing and fuel for smooth startup. I am going to run this system in place of the EFI Extender and MSD BTM I was using and will report back on how it works out.