EFI/Carbs discussion (renamed)

[Greg@GLD]

What a fiasco! On Tuesday I ordered a Pro-M Remote Optimizer. Paid extra so I would have it on Wednesday. Wednesday comes and goes, no package. Call Pro-M and they say "We didn't get it out until Wednesday, sorry. You will have it tomorrow" (thursday)
They give a me a tracking number, and I decided to check on it Thursday because it was getting late and still no package. SO I go on Fedex.com and it says "Business closed (????) unable to deliver"
I call FedEx and they say they tried to deliver the package to "my business" but it has been closed. I asked what address they went to, they provide my HOME address from over 4 years ago. She says "we cannot forward this to your current address unless the shipper approves"
So I call Pro-M again... Seems I placed an order in 1998 from my old house, and for some reason they decided to ship my part to that address. I TOLD the person who took my order what my current address is, they said they would update it.
So the lady from Pro-M says "We have your new address as the billing address, but your old address is still listed for the shipping address" :thud:
She tells me she's really sorry and that they will overnight my package at her cost, will be here by noon. Still no package (I know, it's only 11:00 AM as I type this)
I go to check it and it says "delivery problem"
ARGH!!!!!!

Just called FedEx and they said there was a problem, that the driver could not find my current address (I am in a fairly new subdivision but my house is three years old!) and she says they "tried to call me but the person on the other end said there was no Greg here"
I asked what phone number they called. You guessed it, the one from 4 years ago. :rolleyes:

So now she says they will come back as soon as they can. How can so many f-ups happen to the same freeking package??? How can a major US shipping company not find a street that has been around for three years?? I thought they had fancy GPS locators or something???

Yikes....

[Jesse James]

Damn Greg,
I'll bet if you went towards the nearest shipping facility in your area you'd run by the driver. Pull alongside and have him pull over, "GIMMEE MY PACKAGE"!
I feel your pain! I'm STILL waitin on my S2 package that was supposed to be here over a month ago. :mad: What can you do :thud: :beer:

[Greg@GLD]

It's just such a nice day out. Been out cleaning up the cars and the garage. If it does not come soon I'm just going to go for a ride....

[Jesse James]

It's just such a nice day out. Been out cleaning up the cars and the garage. If it does not come soon I'm just going to go for a ride....

"Gregs goin huntin for the FEDEX guy!!" :banana: :rockon: :thumbs_up

[Greg@GLD]

4 minutes to deadline.... tick tick tick tick...

[Fatstang]

That's frustrating Greg, i hate when expect some package to show but shows days later. What does this Pro-M Remote Optimizer do again?

[Greg@GLD]

Allow me a little more tuning with A/F ratio than I am able to do with the EFI extender. I think I'm pig rich at idle. This device plugs in between the Mass Air sensor and harness, and you can adjust idle voltage separate fron WOT.

[Fatstang]

Wow, maybe i should look into one of those for my Pro-M meter.

[Greg@GLD]

Sheesh... It just came. Still has my old info on the package, and was delivered by a lady in a Caddy???

Oh well, time to play.

[Greg@GLD]

Wow, maybe i should look into one of those for my Pro-M meter.


http://www.pro-flow.com/Product%20pages/remote_optimizer.htm

[Jesse James]

What?!! Delivered by a Caddy? That's sacralige. LOL
Have fun Greg!!

[Greg@GLD]

ARGH!!!!!!

"Remote Optimizer 1988-1993"


I give up.

[Greg@GLD]

Hmmm... bag says 88-93. Instructions say 88-95.

[portponies]

Did the Caddy have a Fed-Ex sticker up the side of it?

[Greg@GLD]

:)

100% change in greg's attitude. Plusgged it in, started it up. Still had that hunt and rich smell. Connected the DC voltmeter, it was way rich per the tables on the adjustment chart. Adjusted MA volts to .85 volts, idle is sooooooth now. Not going to mess with the WOT unless I can get it on a dyno.

Going for a ride, seeee ya!!!

[Greg@GLD]

No Fritz. and the old lady stayed to talk to Missie about her Roses... :rolleyes:

[dufkis]

Yeah I hate Fedex they mess up my stuff all the time. Only UPS for me, they never mess up my stuff. Glad you got ur package thos Greg.

[ntastng]

wow 2 whole pages talking about gregs package. lol. Glad you got it and glad it works though greg.

[Greg@GLD]

Well Ben, getting back on topic, I just got back from GLD. This is the best $160.00 I could have spent on my car. I haven't had a chance to mess with the WOT setting, but the car runs GREAT with this thing! When I used to go for long rides, by the time I got home I stunk like exhaust fumes. The car also had a bit of a surge around 2500 RPM. I never paid much mind to it, I have a pretty radical cam, so I figured this is life with a cam like that. Well, the surge is gone, part throttle response is flat-out awesome and there is no more exhaust smell all over me. I knew I was running rich but holy cow! It's almost like getting a new car, it makes that much difference.

I'm anxious to get the car on a dyno so I can tune WOT. It ran 109 today, 86.x in the 8th, not bad for a fairly warm day.

I'm glad the people at Pro-Flow talked me into this versus sending them my meter.
Awesome product, no doubt!

[Tom]

Good! Now put your review in the appropriate review section. :D

[Greg@GLD]

I suppose I should, yes boss.. :D

Actually, I want to wait for the dyno tune before I do that, but perhaps I'll add the product for now.

[Tom]

That's why I'm here, man. To help. :D

[Greg@GLD]

It was a combo problem. It's not Fed-Ex's fault that Pro-Flow put the wrong address on the package, it was the fact that a package delivery company could not locate a three year old street on the first try that was kind of funny.

Tom- here you go-

http://www.midwestmustangassociation.com/reviewpost/showproduct.php?product=13

Danno- you said "hit or miss" with these, but dude, sending your meter in to be calibrated I think is "hit or miss" but with this device and a VOM, I have gotten awesome results, better than I expected. I'm expecting that having it on a dyno is going to produce similar results with the WOT setting.

[Greg@GLD]

I'm glad it works for ya. I was just stating what others said, I have no experience with them. EFI is for girls anyway.......

Carbs are for dinosaurs. :D
This reminds me of 1986. When EFI first started showing up on 5.0 Mustangs. All the whinning and crying. The Speed Density was ok, but then Mass-Air came out (I had a year head start living in California, the rest of the country still had Speed Density back in the beginning) and people began to realize how awesome it was to be able to add mods to your car and have the EFI for girls properly adjust A/F ratio. More torque, better gas mileage, much more consistancy for bracket racing... ah yes... EFI is for girls. To borrow a line from "Top Gun" So's my Johnson... :D

What's the matter Danno, electronics too much for that pea-sized brain of yours to handle??? :p

Disclaimer: We're kidding here, don't read into the banter between friends!

[ntastng]

I am with dan on this one. I would rather turn a few screws to try and tune my car then mess with the electronics stuff. Although I would love to have an efi car and throw a blower on it someday.

[Greg@GLD]

I am with dan on this one. I would rather turn a few screws to try and tune my car then mess with the electronics stuff. Although I would love to have an efi car and throw a blower on it someday.

Well, I'm confused. All I did was "turn a few screws" (literally!) and my idle smoothed right out! Didn't have to pull any float bowls and change jets (did someone say hit or miss?) Also Ben, jets can't adjust to different conditions like EFI can. A carb can't adjust itself. EFI can. If the barometer changes or the air condtions change, you would have to re-jet to get the most out of your dinosaur carb. EFI will do that by itself.

I used to mess with carbs all the time, back when you and Dan were in diapers. Let's see... Jets, power valves, modulator springs, accelerator pump arms, pump shots, float adjustments, idle screws, mixture screws, choke horns, electric choke, manual choke, grind off the air horn, run no choke, change the secondary spring and diaphram, change to a mechanical secondary, blah blah blah. For a street driven car a carb is so old-school it's akin to a one-room schoolhouse from 1898 versus a modern, well equipped university. :D You'll learn something from both environments I suppose.

Anyway, whatever works for you I guess. The thought of putting a carb on my Cobra makes me want to barf actually... :thumbs_up

[Nick 1]

I can solve this very easy !!!!! Dan & Ben have a few loose screws so they need to play with carbs to make them feel better !!!! See I told you this was easy !!!!! :D Ben & Dan ---> :spanka: <----EFI
Just think I'm playing with a modded Speed Density car, ha,ha :eek: :eek: :eek:


Nick 1

[ntastng]

I wouldn't take an efi car and turn it into a carbed car. I guess I just like carbed better cause that is what I have always had so I guess that is what I am used to.

[Greg@GLD]

That's cool Ben, no biggie. I think from having worked with both over the course of many years, I much prefer EFI for many reasons. The problem with carbs is that they do not self-adjust for changing atmospheric conditions. They are purely mechanical with fixed settings (once you jet/tune them)
You could jet your car to run "perfect" in spring, and by mid-summer it runs like crap because the jetting is not good for the heavy summer air.
Today is the perfect example. See that air outside? Down here the air is so thick you can cut it with a knife. The EEC/EFI will make adjustments to A/F ratio to keep it right at the targeted ratio. Guys who live out west where the elevation changes dramatically will tell you- When they are down in the "valley" the carbed car runs much different then when they run up the mountain roads. Ask a guy who lives in Phoenix (valley of the sun) how different his car runs when he rides up the hill on I-17 to Flagstaff. EFI that won't happen. When I lived out west, my GTOs would react this way; When I used to run up the hill towards the east, as you climbed up above 2000 feet, you could feel the car run differently. When I took my '90 GT on the same roads, you didn't see the same change, it was much less pronounced.

To tune my setup all I need to do is connect a wideband O2 sensor and litterly twist a few adjustment screws. Below is an example of what's involved in PROPERLY jetting a dual-carb setup on an air cooled VW: (I think I'd rather tune an EFI system!)

JETTING PROCEDURE

Sizes: One "size" change on an idle or main jet is "5". So to go richer one size from a 55 idle jet, we would choose a 60. When I say "one size" on the air jet, it means 15-20 if you look at the numbers! So, one "change" in air jet size would be from 200 to a 180 or 220.

First, we need to figure out if you have the proper sized carburetor to begin with! Bigger is NOT necessarily better. Carburetors come "out of the box" with specific venturi (also called a choke tube) sizes depending on the size carb BODY you have. Example: 40mm (signifying a 40mm BODY) Dellorto carbs usually come with a 34mm venturi. The venturi is stamped with a number, and it's the narrowest channel in the body of the carb. You can see the number on it (it's usually even) if you look down the top of the carb throat. Ideally, you would use a chart to find out if the venturi size is correct. It's dependent on max RPMs, and engine displacement. I'll leave this topic here, since venturi changing is not cheap. If your engine (after jetting) has no power at the top end ("lays down"), or has no power until 2500 RPMs (no low end), there is a good chance your carbs are too small or too big for your application (respectively). If this is the case, then you should consider changing venturi sizes or go to larger/smaller carbs!

Why Jet? If it's too rich, the extra fuel will wash the fuel off your cylinders and wear out your pistons, cylinders, and rings quickly (no oil), in addition to building up deposits on your valves, heads, and piston tops. If it's too lean, the engine will run very hot, misfire, and can eventually lead to a burnt valve(s). Get it right!

Idle circuit: The idle circuit is the device that controls how much fuel you have at idle and it also sends fuel to the progression circuits. Where many people run into problems is that they don't understand that the IDLE JET IS THE CIRCUIT THAT THEY DO MOST OF THEIR DRIVING ON. So, this jet is critical in engine flexibility and economy. The idle jet affects engine operation up to about 2500-3000 RPMs!

Almost every dual carb application I have seen with VW engines use a 55-60 idle jet. Center-mounted carbs need a RICHER (larger) idle jet, since the carb is so far from the cylinders and the fuel condenses on the way there (keep your manifold pre-heater).

What you want to do is this: get the engine fully warmed up. Now, with synchronized carbs (remember?), turn the idle mixture screw on one cylinder in until you hear the engine misfire. It means THAT CYLINDER is too lean, and it doesn't have enough gas to run properly. Turn the mixture screw back out until the engine idle smoothes out again, and then go out another ½-1 full turn. Repeat for the other 3 cylinders.

Idle jets ARE available in small increments. Normally, shops stock them in round sizes of "5"s, like 50, 55, 60, etc. You can find 57s, etc if you look around to REALLY get it right on! If you have a significantly larger idle jet (48 IDAs usually come with a 70!), I recommend going down until you can NOT get a good engine response with the mixture screws anymore. Idle jet sizes of 70 or so will "run" on anything, but they don't run WELL (unless fouled plugs or 12mpg are your idea of "well"). In addition, if you have a problem with a 55/60 idle jet, and you have the right main jet, and STILL have a hesitation regardless of accellerator pump adjustment, you need to play with your idle air bleed (what the idle jet fuel mixes with)! This is a much-needed modification to 48 IDAs on the VW street engine, and is beyond the scope of this article, and you best leave that modification to an expert. Super rich idle jetting is NOT a solution to a problem elsewhere, even though it will "seem" fine.

Once you find the idle jet size (around 55-60), you are done there! They are easy.

Main Jets: The next jet to dial in is your main jet. As a starting point, choose a main jet size about 4.1 - 4.3 X Venturi Size (mm). Simple! We are only trying to get in the ballpark! If you live at a high elevation, go down one size ("5") from what you come up with. If I have a 34 venturi, my main jet size should be around 34 X 4.2 = 142.8. A 140-145 is where I want to be. It's usually best to start rich and go leaner as we learn, so we'll choose a 145. 4-5000 foot elevation would choose 140 (one size down).

Now, you need to DRIVE the car. Drive it hard! You really have to pay attention to how the engine is running (turn off the radio).

Spitting/sputtering/cracking is an indication of being too LEAN. Now, what RPMs that it's doing this tells you which jet you need to change! 2000 RPMs and lower, and you need to richen up your idle jet (go bigger). 2500-4000 RPMs and you need to richen up your main jet!

Do NOT confuse accelerator pump adjustments with main jet adjustments! If the engine stumbles when you open the throttle, it could be a pump adjustment, but it could also mean a main jet change. Pay attention to STEADY throttle position when testing in these areas! It's easy to confuse the two. If the main jet doesn't solve it, try the pump. If it runs good at 3000-4000 rpms and stumbles elsewhere, your main is right and the problem is somewhere else. Try to do main jet testing from 1000 RPMs up to 4000 or so. This eliminates the accelerator pump issue from your testing!

If the engine pulls "OK", but doesn't sound CRISP (it feels "heavy"), it's too rich! Try to go DOWN on your main jet one size, and try again. They are very easy to change, and this is one of the beauties of Weber/Dellorto carburetors! Once you get used to it, it goes very quickly! Whatever you do, do NOT drop a jet down the carb throat, or you have to remove the carb or fish it out (they are brass, so a magnet is of no help!). To get the engine EXACTLY right, I recommend going down on your main jets until it sputters/spits, and that means it's too lean! Go back up on the mains until it smoothes out, and you are done on the main jets!

Air Corrector Jet: The air jet jets AIR, not fuel! So, if you want to lean it out, you go BIGGER on the air jet, and smaller on the air jet if you want to richen it up! The air jet affects the engine from about 4000rpms up. You really have to wind it out to use this one, so be careful! Start with a baseline jet of 200. If it starts spitting and sputtering at high rpms, you need to richen it up, so change it to a 180 air jet. You are following the same procedure as the main jet, but your "operating window" is now 4000 RPMs up instead of the main jet's 2500-4500. I have seen air jets in the range of 160-240. If you are out of this range, you need to go back to the 200 air jet, and change emulsion tubes.

Emulsion Tubes: The Emulsion Tube mixes air from the air corrector jet with fuel from the main jet, and controls the mixture from the discharge nozzle at all engine speeds that the main jet is working! Basically, the Emulsion Tube changes the diameter and location of small holes in it's body. For Weber IDF carbs, the F7 or F11 is usually what you need. The F "series" has no rhyme nor reason to the numbering system, so you can't tell anything by the number unless you look it up! But, with these two examples, the F7 richens the mixture up at the bottom of the RPM range and under acceleration, while the F11 leans the mixture out on the top end a little bit, and is usually used (high RPMs) when you use air jets larger than 200.

Accelerator Pump: Remember from the beginning of this article, that air and fuel have different viscosities. They also have different densities! Since fuel is much heavier than the same "amount" of air, when you open/close the throttle, the air will change speed MUCH faster than the fuel will (think of a heavy car vs. a light one). When you open the throttle quickly, the air INSTANTLY speeds up to fill the engine. The fuel responds TO the air volume, so it has to react. In addition, it's heavier so it can't change "speed' as quickly. The result is that the engine has a lot of air, and NOT ENOUGH FUEL. It leans out! So, almost all carburetors have an accellerator pump that adds fuel when you open the throttle. This gives the main jet time to start metering the right amount of fuel to the engine.

We want as little accellerator pump squirt as possible to remove the stumble from the engine. Too much gas as it's washing our oil off the cylinder walls (wearing out our pistons and rings) as well as lowering our MPG. Basically, turning the pump screw in adds more fuel shot to the engine as the throttle is opened up. Be conservative!

Hopefully you now have tools and confidence to jet your carburetors, and can stop listening to guys who are only tuning carbs by doing what everyone else is doing, instead of LISTENING TO WHAT THEIR ENGINE NEEDS.

[Kool Rock Steady]

Glad you got it but since when does fed x have caddy's for delivery? lol