Building a Drag Car

[SeeNRed69]

I recently gutted my 90LX 5.0 and am attempting to build a car ONLY for GLD. Putting a 351 in it soon, But thats were my knowlege ends. Any suggestions or comments on what I should be adding to the car would be awsome.

[markstang]

how fast do you plan on going? power adder or NA? stick or auto? slick or dot tire?


Mark

[SeeNRed69]

would like to be in the 9's but will settle for low 10's. With a blower. C6 Auto. Slicks.

[MAT88GT]

http://www.mustangcentral.net/tech/diagrams/NHRARuleBook.pdf

[SeeNRed69]

Thanks. But I really don't plan on racing for points or cash, just for fun. I will order the book.

[Nick 1]

Todd, that could still be a street car very easy. :thumbs_up

Btw......If your going with an auto, I'd use a c-4 before a c-6.

C-6 is a big heavy monster, & a built c-4 can take anything you can dish out Hp wise no problem. :thumbs_up



Nick 1

[MAT88GT]

indeed Nick, c4 gets my choice as well

[SeeNRed69]

any suggestions on stroking the 351 out to? thinking about a 377 or 406.

[SeeNRed69]

which rule book do I need. The NHRA or is there a IHRA book too?

[Nick 1]

Both wouldn't hurt, but GLD is an IHRA track.

Lot's of different kits for 351w's out there.

Look around you'll see what I mean. :thumbs_up


Nick 1
:D

[MAT88GT]

nhra surpasses ihra....so if you build for nhra you'll be legal for both ;)

[Ghost]

nhra surpasses ihra....so if you build for nhra you'll be legal for both ;)
\
I 2nd :thumbs_up

[markstang]

Both wouldn't hurt, but GLD is an IHRA track.

Lot's of different kits for 351w's out there.

Look around you'll see what I mean. :thumbs_up


Nick 1
:D


I was told sunday that GLD is going to be NHRA in a few years, after the improvements are done....????


I would build the motor as big as you can if you are starting from scratch. 9.5 deck block :rockon:

I would also put a cage in it for anything faster that low 10s.
a good strong anti roll bar & reinforce all the torque boxes before they move.
light weight K member & control arms, manual rack.
remove all dead weight.....

You can just buy my car, I have been thinking about building a new chassis, it's on the main page if you want to see it.


Mark

[dave bandt]

I wrecked my car this summer at GLD and have EVERYTHING you could want to build a car.....except the chassis. We're gonna start on the new one soon so i'll cut you a heck of a deal on the stuff. Let me know if you are interested. Oh yeah....it went low 8's with a SBF on one stage of nitrous.

[Greg@GLD]

Markstang is correct- You might just find GLD reverts back to NHRA sanction, you never know.. :hehe:

DAVE!!! Where ya been man? Welcome back!

Todd, you really do need to set goals as far as what style of racing you plan to do, how fast you want to go, etc. Sounds like you should plan to get a trailer also? Gotta think of all these things.

[dave bandt]

DAVE!!! Where ya been man? Welcome back!

Been focusing on work and some other things. The wreck left a sour taste in my mouth....took the wind out of my sails you could say. I bought a new ATV (750cc Kawasaki Brute Force V-Twin......AWESOME!!)and have been at hunting camp 5 of the last 7 weekends with my son. He got his first bird last weekend and I'm hoping he gets his first deer in a couple of weeks.

Anyway.....let's just say that some things have fallen into place in the last week that have my blood PUMPING again. We're gonna start ordering tubing next week. Watch the classifieds for a lot of NICE go fast parts. I'm pretty sure you'll see a 1400HP all aluminum nitrous small block for sale REAL SOON.

[markstang]

Suspension will be a priority also. Got to get all that power to the track.

Mark - just out of morbid curiosity, how much would you sell your car for??



It would depend on what you want....
turn key= $45,000
rolling chassis= $13,500

I haven't sat down & worked up any firm #'s. just been thinking about it.


Mark

[Cobrawife]

Dave, will be great to see back in the fold, great to hear you are back on track! (Greg posting on wife's laptop)

[NitrousEdge]

It would depend on what you want....
turn key= $45,000
rolling chassis= $13,500

I haven't sat down & worked up any firm #'s. just been thinking about it.


Mark


:thud: :shifter: :thud:

[LangeStang]

any suggestions on stroking the 351 out to? thinking about a 377 or 406.



408!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rockon:
LangeStang :hbullet:

[Want Notch]

If your going to go big stroke a 460. Make it 518 or bigger. If it's not going to be used on the street you really don't need to worry about the drivability issues that come alonf when you put a bbf in a fox body.

[portponies]

If your going to go big stroke a 460. Make it 518 or bigger. If it's not going to be used on the street you really don't need to worry about the drivability issues that come alonf when you put a bbf in a fox body.


No replacement for "displacement"! :shifter:

[dave bandt]

No replacement for "displacement"! :shifter:

Sure there is. It's called a POWER ADDER! :rockon:

[Want Notch]

How about big displacement and a power adder! :shifter:

[dave bandt]

How about big displacement and a power adder! :shifter:

Like 640 inches and two foggers? :shifter:

[portponies]

What about suspension?

"Stock" suspension pieces or coil-overs?
What are the pro's and con's to coil-overs?

[dave bandt]

What about suspension?

"Stock" suspension pieces or coil-overs?
What are the pro's and con's to coil-overs?

The ONLY negative side to coil overs is the price!!!

[markstang]

The ONLY negative side to coil overs is the price!!!


& you can't race in any stock suspension classes.
next year I will take my coilovers out & put back the stock type coil springs & shocks back in, so I can race in the new outlaw stock class at Byron.
I will also be able to go back to coilovers at will...... so I'll let you know what the differnce is between the two.
I know coilovers are way more adjustable in many ways.


Mark

[portponies]

I wrecked my car this summer at GLD and have EVERYTHING you could want to build a car.....except the chassis.

Just curious. What does "everything" come with?

This is not a hijack.

Since Todd and I are both looking for a roll cage, and because I'm sure we'll be helping each other out building our cars, I'll just tag along on this thread for a while.

:beer:

[dave bandt]

I'll sell everything minus the engine, tranny, and some of the nitrous stuff. Here is a list of stuff off the top of my head....

Front Suspension:
Tubular K-member with tubular upper and lower control arms
HAL QA-1 struts/coil overs(2 sets of springs), 1 extra shock that needs adjuster fixed
C/C plates
Aerospace brakes
Manual Rack
Manual brake conversion
Proportioning valve
Line Lock

Rear End:
9" with aluminum center section
Wilwood brakes
Billet pinion support
Chromoly yoke
35 spline axles with light weight spool & 3.90 gears
Wolfe double adjustable uppers
Wolfe single adjustable lowers
Wolfe double adjustable sway bar
Solid spherical bushings
HAL QA-1 rear shocks.....10 way adjustables
2 Weld front rims with a M/T skinnies....not a lot left on them...1 or 2 years
1 weld back rim....other was damaged
*edit*....forgot the chromoly wheelie bars and parachute!

Other Misc Stuff
MSD 7AL-2 box
MSD 3 stage retard....for nitrous
MSD 2 step
Paxton 300 fuel pump
8 Gallon fuel cell
2 fiberglass race seats with covers
drive shaft loop
aluminum 4 core radiator(Griffin I think)
black magic fan
autometer boost, oil, and temp gauges
autometer tach
EVERY hose is braided....i've got over a grand in hoses/fittings on the car!

The cage is chromoly and could be put into another car. However, the bar that runs across the windshield above the dash will need to be replaced because it got ground up pretty good while i was skidding on the roof. Tigging one in wouldn't be a big deal.


Things i will keep.....
nitrous fuel pump, lines, and regulator, controller, and some wiring
bottle brackets
engine
tranny
drive shaft(can discuss this if you are gonna run a glide)
shifter(can discuss this if you are gonna run a glide)

I'm sure i forgot some other stuff. All of the glass is good except the front, interior is black, and most of the body panels are toast.

I'll sell everything for $6K. Bolt the stuff into your car and go run 8's!

*edit 2*.....engine is now for sale! N

No reasonable offers refused....this stuff has to go!

[markstang]

any suggestions on stroking the 351 out to? thinking about a 377 or 406.


if you had a 9.5 deck 351 dart block with a 4.125 bore & a 4.25 stroke crank, it would be a 454ci sbf :rockon:
if you bore it out to a safe 4.185 & use the same 4.25" crank, it would be a 468ci sbf :rockon:

a 4.125 bore x 4" stroke= a 428ci sbf

nothing wrong with a big block, everybody assumes it's naturally big. but a 454 sbf, is like a 5' 4" 125lb chick with some 36 DD implants. it's to good to be true.


Mark

[QTRMILE]

are you wanting to sell everything together, or will you piece it out Dave?

[dave bandt]

I'm gonna start parting it out REAL soon.....probably after deer season. I don't have time to mess with it right now. But after my son gets his first deer it's time to start on my "next project".

[SLOWZ]

Dave, when you gonna start parting it out? If you can, shoot me some pics of the seats/covers

Chris

[dave bandt]

Right after deer season. Everything might be gone already, though. One person already has the complete rear suspension. And another guy i know that's doing an Outlaw car told me that he wants the rest of the car because he needs the front suspension and ignition system. I'll find out if he needs the seats or not.....I don't think he does. Be sure to email me in a couple of weeks in case i forget.

[SLOWZ]

Thanks Dave.

[67stang]

I agree with Dave, go for displacement and a power adder!!! :D :D :D
If you want "cheap" power start with a 460, or check out the FPP 514 crate engine, it would be tough to beat for the price.

[dave bandt]

I agree with Dave, go for displacement and a power adder!!! :D :D :D
If you want "cheap" power start with a 460, or check out the FPP 514 crate engine, it would be tough to beat for the price.

Man.....is that a WICKED ride! What kind of times do you run?

[onewickedstang]

yes indeed!!! we need numbers for that car!!!!!! :rockon:

[67stang]

Man.....is that a WICKED ride! What kind of times do you run?

Here's the "short" answer to your question. :burnout:

As you can see I prefer blown alcohol, with blown alcohol besides bottom end maintenance the problem I’ve experienced at the 2000 + hp level is actually getting the power to the ground, unlike nitrous, the power cannot be brought to the tires in stages without a slipper clutch. Because of this I gave up on the DOT Hoosiers and went to Good Year 32 x 16-15 slicks, but even with slicks, leaving at 2000 rpm / foot braking and the programmable ignition controller cutting the timing back to 14 degrees on launch the slicks were still over powered forcing me to let off before I even get to the tree. While testing we also found that the engine was driving through the converter causing a loss of about 16 to 18 mph on the top end, my trans shop built a new 260 mm “Killer Caddy” converter and after one test run I found that although the top end slippage seams to be solved the converter also hits so hard off the line and even down the track that I am now way back “past” square one with the chassis and my set up. It almost feels like it wants to flip over on its roof at the hit of the throttle. With all these problems my best time with the old converter has been a tire spinning throttle peddling converter slipping 8.28 at 165.

I’m going to use the winter to update the chassis, add a bigger anti roll bar, and rethink my power requirements, as the chassis is only good for 7.50 anyway. I’m finding it’s a lot easier to make the power than it is to get it to the ground, I never thought I’d think it much less say it but sometimes less is more.

As soon as I get my new computer for Christmas I’ll convert some of my test runs I have on VHS into a WMV file so Greg can post them here.

Rob

[Want Notch]

Did you say 2000+HP! :thud:

Oh my lord! :eek2:

[dave bandt]

I’m finding it’s a lot easier to make the power than it is to get it to the ground, I never thought I’d think it much less say it but sometimes less is more.


I hear you there. I hope to run into you at GLD in the future.

[67stang]

I hear you there. I hope to run into you at GLD in the future.

We'll have to try and plan it for next summer! :burnout:

[67stang]

Did you say 2000+HP! :thud:

Oh my lord! :eek2:

Yes, the engine is a "slightly" detuned 526 Pro Mod combination from C & C Motorsports. It uses a 4.125 Velasco billet crank with center counter weights, 426 Chrysler sized Brooks aluminum rods, 4.500 bore 11.75-1 Arias pistons, he actually stocks this stuff. I don't run C & C heads but use A/R heads with 2.500 in and 2.000 ex valves ported by Jon Kasse, for costs I also use an A460 block instead of a C & C aluminum. The only real differences are in the cam lift and blower size. My cam duration is 286 in 296 ex @.05 but for "street" driving my lift is only .785 in & .76 ex versus .850 & .830, for the blower I run a 12-71 at 30% over versus a 14-71 at 30% over, this lowers by boost to about 24 - 25 lbs versus about 31 - 32. Carrolls engines are dynoed at 2462 hp, based on my combo Carroll thinks mine is over 2000 but since we don't have the actual numbers I just use the 2000 figure.

[dave bandt]

You need to bolt on a set of 33 X 10.5 W's and go Outlaw Street racing! From what you've described you've already got the power......you just need to figure out the chassis.

[67stang]

You need to bolt on a set of 33 X 10.5 W's and go Outlaw Street racing! From what you've described you've already got the power......you just need to figure out the chassis.


That would be an option and I have thought about it. Who knows, maybe as I get into the car this winter I'll "rethink" what I want to do with it. Have to see what happens. Are the 10.5 tires DOT?

[dave bandt]

That would be an option and I have thought about it. Who knows, maybe as I get into the car this winter I'll "rethink" what I want to do with it. Have to see what happens. Are the 10.5 tires DOT?



No......it's a 33" tall by 11.5" wide slick. It's always bugged me that they call it 10.5 racing when they aren't even a 10.5 tire. The "big boys" are running 4.50's in the 1/8th on them and Lynch/Petty just broke the record as the first 6 second run....6.96 at something like 208. But most events low 7's are real competitive. Since you run Dodge engine in a Ford body Edelbrock's Pro series is probably the only sanctioning body for you to run in. Come to think about it, the NMCA might allow that too. I don't know.....but now you've got some rule book reading to do while it's snowing outside. :D

[67stang]

Since you run Dodge engine in a Ford body. :D

Dave,
It's not a Chrysler hemi, it's based on the Ford Boss 429. :D

[dave bandt]

I thought i read it was based off the 426......my bad for not paying close enough attention. That's some pretty cool stuff you've got there....definately high end. I need to pick up a block pretty soon....been leaning towards the steel IDT 10.3 block. But a tall deck aluminum deal would be nice too because it would allow me do a 700" deal if i ever wanted to. I've got a few months to make up my mind, though.

[67stang]

No......it's a 33" tall by 11.5" wide slick. It's always bugged me that they call it 10.5 racing when they aren't even a 10.5 tire. The "big boys" are running 4.50's in the 1/8th on them and Lynch/Petty just broke the record as the first 6 second run....6.96 at something like 208. But most events low 7's are real competitive. :D


Dave,
Are these guys running automatics? If they can hook up that kind of power on a 11.5" wide tire maybe I should have another shop look at my converter, because I'm having a hell of a time on a 16".

[67stang]

Dave,
If you can afford it I'd go with aluminum block!! If not I would stick with the Ford block if nothing else because of the cost & weight, the IDT block in my view has some chemical / metallurgical issues and is also heavier & costs more than the Ford iron block. I have some pretty good sources for the Ford block if you go that route :D

[dave bandt]

Some guys run automatics. Many run a Lenco-drive or Bruno due to reliability issues.

I've got a hook up on the IDT block and can get one cheaper than a Dart or Motorsport Windsor block. Actually, i'm working on a free one right now. The reason i like them is because i've heard that the IDT can go to 4.700 without suffering from the ring sealing issues that an SVO block has at 4.600. That is consistant with what you said about them weighing more too. I know several guys that have cracked SVO blocks (cylinders) at 4.600 when making upwards of 2000HP.....so that kind of scared me away from that block. Also, with a nitrous combo like mine ring seal is critical.....so i need to keep as much material in the bore as possible in order to maximize power. I can't just spin the blower faster like you! LOL! That is a big reason why i'm hesitant to go with an aluminum block at the power levels this next motor is going to make.

[67stang]

Some guys run automatics. Many run a Lenco-drive or Bruno due to reliability issues.

With either one they still need a torque converter, still might not be a bad idea to send mine to another shop to see if anything can be done too kill some bottom end with out slipping on the top end or going to a smaller unit.

Thats why I keep my bore at 4.500. How big you going on your new engine? Check out C & C motorsports Carroll Carter has some nice aluminum blocks.
(703-368-7878) http://candcmotorsports.com/index.html

[dave bandt]

With the power you're making Neal Chance is the only person i would be dealing with. They are very spendy but are in almost every fast car with a converter that i know of.

[markstang]

With either one they still need a torque converter, still might not be a bad idea to send mine to another shop to see if anything can be done too kill some bottom end with out slipping on the top end or going to a smaller unit.


how come you don't run a clutch? it would let you slip it off the line & lock up on the big end, just like the pro mods do, in order to make a clean pass...... I know it could be a problem driving on the street. but thats when you put in some base & go for a ride....

If you need help with a clutch setup, I can hook you up with somebody that knows how to get you down the track with that kind of power. Metz Performance.

Mark

[67stang]

how come you don't run a clutch? it would let you slip it off the line & lock up on the big end, just like the pro mods do, in order to make a clean pass......

Mark

Besides the street issue the biggest reason is the cost, they're expensive to buy and too run. I don't run alot at the track and don't plan to in the near future, if I was trying to compete at a "national" level I'd have no choice but to switch. With the right combination an automatic should do what I want it too as my chassis is only legal to 7.50, we just need to find "it", besides my trans shop builds the converters and transmissions for free.

Rob

[67stang]

With the power you're making Neal Chance is the only person i would be dealing with. They are very spendy but are in almost every fast car with a converter that i know of.

Dave,
I just sent the quote form to Neal Chance, I'll let you know what they say.

[markstang]

Besides the street issue the biggest reason is the cost, they're expensive to buy and too run. I don't run alot at the track and don't plan to in the near future, if I was trying to compete at a "national" level I'd have no choice but to switch. With the right combination an automatic should do what I want it too as my chassis is only legal to 7.50, we just need to find "it", besides my trans shop builds the converters and transmissions for free.

Rob


I see. free stuff is good...... sounds like a wild street car, bring that car to the real street drags at GLD some time..... I think even on a bad run you would win. :shifter:


Mark