NOS Help!!!

[trink408]

I'm looking for some advice on setting up my nitrous system. Here is my situation:

My car 88 Mustang HB-3200lb's with driver
My motor 408 Windsor, 4-bolt block, forged internals, 11.5:1, Victor JR stage 2 heads, Victor JR intake, Comp Cams Hydraulic Roller nitrous cam, Kooks 2" stepped to 2-1/8 headers, 3" exhaust system. This is a street car.

I just got the car out last weekend and I pulled a 10.92@124.5 on the motor. I think with tuning and the line-lock working to heat the tires I can pull 10.70's out of the motor.

I have a Wilson Pro-Flow 2 stage system for the car. I can run up to 350hp in each stage. I want to put the car in the mid to high 9 second range, but I'm not sure how much NOS that will take. I was hoping not to run more than about 300 hp worth total to get into the 9's, but I don't have any experience with NOS so maybe I'm wrong with that figure. Any thoughts?

I was going to run 150hp worth in each stage, and activate the stages using digi-set timers. I was not sure if I could hook the car on DOT tires with the NOS coming on right away so I was going to delay both the first and second stages. Does this sound reasonable?

I have a MSD digital retard box, but I'm not sure how much timing I should be taking out for each 150hp shot? I thought around 6-8 degrees. I am going to be running a seperate fuel system for the NOS with good racing gas in the tank.

The car has a trans-brake, so I was not sure how to hook up the WOT switch not to activate until the trans-brake is released? Any suggestions?

I know this is a lot of information, but I want to get this hooked up right the first time. I probably will start out just trying like 50hp in each stage and go up from there. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and if anyone is near the Green Bay area and would like to help with wiring that would be awesome.

thanks for looking

[1slo5.0]

What kind of tires are you running? What kind of converter and trans? Pull 2.5 degrees of timing per 50 horsepower of nitrous so at 150 you would pull about 7.5 degrees of timing out. Run good fuel like VP C16.


http://www.slapnuts.org/images/wire-nos2tb.gif

[trink408]

I'm running 10.5" hoosier ET Pro's.

I have a C-4 Trans, with a 4500 stall converter.

I did plan on running C-16 in the nitrous tank.

thanks for the diagram.

[1slo5.0]

I'm running 10.5" hoosier ET Pro's.

I have a C-4 Trans, with a 4500 stall converter.

I did plan on running C-16 in the nitrous tank.

thanks for the diagram.


If your chassis is in check, you'll be able to hook those tires spraying off the line. 9's shouldn't be a problem.

[BBATCO1]

You should be able to hit the nines with 73 jets on one stage if tuned right. I have been tinkering around with wilson stuff for a couple years now and I find there baselines really close, maybee just a tad fat... You can call wilson and they will help...

[trink408]

[QUOTE=BBATCO1]You should be able to hit the nines with 73 jets on one stage if tuned right.


What kind of HP do 73 jets translate to?
Did you run a single stage or 2 stage system?

I was also curious how many runs you can make off a 15lb bottle? I know there are probably a lot of variables involved, but lets say a 9.80 car running 300hp of nitrous. Any estimates on runs? I have 2 15lb bottles, and I was not sure if that would be enough for a day at the track.

Thanks again

[BBATCO1]

73 jets 175 hp. If your motor is somewhat set-up for spray you should knock a second off with those. With 300 hp I would say two runs a bottle

[dave bandt]

A 300 shot requires bottle changes after every pass with 10#-ers. You can make 2 passes with a 15 bottle but it will fatten up on the big end quite a bit more on the 2nd pass due to increased pressure drop. If you're going to shoot 300 or more on a single stage you should be changing 10# bottles every pass.

I don't know a lot about plate tune ups so i'll refrain from commenting on them. However, since you are new to nitrous you need to start slowly with the tune up. Launch the car and run it about 300'. Shut it down, coast off the track, and check the plugs on the return road. Either that or have someone there to pull you back with a 4 wheeler. If you drive the car back you won't get an accurate reading on the plugs. If everything looks good run it to 600' the next pass and go through the same routine. Next pass go 1000'. Make a full pass when you are comfortable that the incrementals look good.

Good luck. Move SLOWLY, check EVERYTHING, and BE CAREFUL. You'll love nitrous. But it gets difficult once you get up over 350 HP. And if you get lazy you will hurt parts.

[dave bandt]

Wow Dave. I didnt know it was that bad as far as how much you go through when spraying that high. Looks like I'm gonna need some bottles!!!!!(hint hint):)


Get your own!! It's taken me a couple years to accumulate the 12 that i have now. And i'm not givin NONE away.....unless i switch to a turbo or blower. :eek:

[dave bandt]

You know i'll always help you out, Dan......

[trink408]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Another question I have is about spark plugs. How cold should I be running for around 150hp and 300hp? I have Champion C55CX plugs that the engine builder sent me for nitrous.

ARe you guys running bottle heaters?
How big of line should I be running for the nitrous and fuel solenoids? I was thinking -6.

Is it recommended to richen up the motor before running nitrous, or should the nitrous fuel solenoids be supplying enough?

Thanks again

[dave bandt]

Leave your motor tune alone. Get it close and tune with the nitrous kit. I'm not familiar with the Champion plugs you mentioned. Everyone i know uses either NGK or Autlolite AR "Racing" plugs. Do you have gasket or tapered seat plugs? For a 150 shot go one step colder. For 200 and more go 2 at a minimum. Once you get up above 300 or so go with 3.

A bottle heater is CRITICAL to properly tuning a nitrous system. Tuning is doing a mass balance between fuel and nitrous flow rates....then lighting the mixture at the right time. That's really all there is to it. Since nitrous flows through a constant orifice (i.e. jet) the only way to manipulate its flow is through bottle pressure. Since you have a fuel pressure regulator it is MUCH easier to manipulate that variable and leave the nitrous flow rate constant. In other words, if you don't have the same bottle pressure all the time....and therefore the same nitrous flow rate.....how do you know how much fuel pressure to run in order to supply the proper ratio of fuel flow?

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Dave

[trink408]

Thanks a lot Dave.

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future.

Do you race at GLD, I would love to talk with you face to face about more of this stuff.

Thanks again to everyone for all the great info.

[SMOKD U]

good luck sounds like an awesome combo to me

[dave bandt]

Thanks a lot Dave.

I'm sure I will have more questions in the future.

Do you race at GLD, I would love to talk with you face to face about more of this stuff.

Thanks again to everyone for all the great info.


You're quite welcome. I'm here to help.

I raced at GLD a couple of times this year until i wrecked my car. We're starting a new one in December and i might be out late next year. But most likely it will be 06 before you see me out full time again.

[trink408]

[QUOTE=dave bandt]Leave your motor tune alone. Get it close and tune with the nitrous kit. I'm not familiar with the Champion plugs you mentioned. Everyone i know uses either NGK or Autlolite AR "Racing" plugs. Do you have gasket or tapered seat plugs? For a 150 shot go one step colder. For 200 and more go 2 at a minimum. Once you get up above 300 or so go with 3.

Dave, do you know any part numbers for those Autolite or NGK plugs that would be in the heat range I need for 250-300hp of nitrous?

I just have these Champion's because that is what the engine builder gave me to run, they are a gasket seat.

How much fuel pressure do I need for the nitrous fuel system. I have a Holley "Blue" pump I was going to use, is that big enough?

[Chuck]

From Dave to me earlier this year:
Go two ranges colder and start with a gap of 0.035". If you're running the gasket type plug an NGK -9 or Autolite AR3933 would work well for you. You can probably even get away with a -8 or 3934....but i'd start cold and then go hotter.

[1slo5.0]

Chuck are you sure of those numbers? For my AFR's I use 3924(stock), 3923(1 colder), or 3922(2 colder). Just double checking, I realize Vic Jr.'s might take different plugs, but I know the 3923 are the gasket type also.


The AR series are Autolites Racing plugs. AR3933 is equivelent to (fitment wise) the standard 3924-3922 plugs.

[dave bandt]

Dave, do you know any part numbers for those Autolite or NGK plugs that would be in the heat range I need for 250-300hp of nitrous?

I just have these Champion's because that is what the engine builder gave me to run, they are a gasket seat.

How much fuel pressure do I need for the nitrous fuel system. I have a Holley "Blue" pump I was going to use, is that big enough?


Sorry i took so long to respond....I was at deer camp with my son.

Darrell covered the plug numbers for you.....you'll be safe with the AR3933's at the level you mentioned. If you go above 300 switch to the 32's.

I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND A HOLLEY BLUE PUMP FOR A 250 - 300 SHOT. I have heard of people being successful with them at that level, but I have also heard of people being unsuccessful. The last part of that sentence can also be read as "Burning their stuff to the ground." If you are going to build an engine capable of handling a 300 shot you need a BG280 or bigger on the nitrous system's fuel side. Personally, i'd put a BG400 in and be done with it.....knowing you can run two systems off of it safely. The other option is to put a monster pump like a Magnaflow 500 on the car and feed everything from it. That pump will support something like 1500 HP. Unfortunately, a system like that is going to cost you about a grand installed. Then again, burning the motor up can cost more than that pretty easily.

[dave bandt]

Gotcha. Those the ones with the straps?

Dan....weren't you paying attention when i was showing you my plugs? :D

[trink408]

I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND A HOLLEY BLUE PUMP FOR A 250 - 300 SHOT. I have heard of people being successful with them at that level, but I have also heard of people being unsuccessful



Dave, How much fuel pressure or flow do you need for a 250-300hp shot? I thought that a Blue pump would provide plenty enough fuel, but I don't want to take a chance of meltdown. I can't afford to build another motor right away.

How big of lines should I be running on the fuel system for the nitrous. I was going to run -8 lines off the tank to the pump and run a splitter down to -6 for the solenoids.

Thanks for all the tips.

[dave bandt]

Dave, How much fuel pressure or flow do you need for a 250-300hp shot? I thought that a Blue pump would provide plenty enough fuel, but I don't want to take a chance of meltdown. I can't afford to build another motor right away.

How big of lines should I be running on the fuel system for the nitrous. I was going to run -8 lines off the tank to the pump and run a splitter down to -6 for the solenoids.

Thanks for all the tips.

Your fuel line sizes sound good. FYI, a 6AN feed to the fuel solenoids will be fine. You have two choices on how to set the line/system up. The first would be to run the 8 AN up to a "T" and then go into two separate regulators....one for each stage. That is how i set my system up....it's gives the most precise control. The other way would be to run the 8 AN line into a single regulator and use that to control both systems. The drawback to this arrangement is when the 2nd stage activates the pressure feeding the first stage will drop slightly for a certain amount of time. How much depends on the quality of your fuel pump and how many "G's" the car is pulling.

With that said, if you HONESTLY will never be spraying more than 300 with both stages then a single regulator will work and be cost effective. If you ever think that you'll want to go into the 400+ range then I'd suggest T-ing the line and running two regulators. Why? Because at that level tuning becomes very sensitive and it is therefore crucial to have accurate control of the fuel delivery.

As far as "how much fuel pressure for 250-300 HP"....that is a relative question. To illustrate my point let me ask you a question. If your flow tool has a 1/4" discharge orifice in it and mine has an 1/8"....and if we both set flowing pressure at 7 PSI......will be both have the same amount of fuel flow? I think it's pretty obvious that yours will be flowing a substantially greater amount of fuel. Because of this i don't give detailed tuneup advice without being at the track to actually look at a person's plugs and how they are tuning their combo. However, Pro Flow should give you a tune up baseline to work from that should be close.

If you want to talk to me you can call me at 715-324-4111 or email me at dbandt@ispcorp.com.

[trink408]

Thanks for all the great info Dave, I will be contacting you for more detailed information.

I wanted to ask another question about wiring these systems up.

Do any of you guys run nitrous controllers that were pre-wired from a dealer? I see that Wilson sells a nitrous controller kit that simplifies the installation of a 2 stage system. I also was looking at a company called Spaghetti Menders and they sell some kits as well. I'm not really good with electronics, and I want this to be a clean, dependable, user-friendly set up. Any thoughts or advice would be great. If anyone does nitrous installs let me know, I may be interested in the hiring some help with this.

thanks

[dave bandt]

If you are talking about the nitrous controllers that pulse the electrical signals to the solenoids to control the amount of nitrous I don't like them becasue they beat the SNOT out of the solenoids. On the other hand, i know some people that do like them. It really is a matter of personal preference. I prefer to keep things as simple and safe as possible with nitrous sytems. But i am blessed with a good job that affords me the budget to do things a lot of other people can't.

If you are looking for wiring help i would suggest you talk with Mike Nelson at Nitrous Supply. The company was formed by a few "old timers" from NOS that broke off and started their own business. Mike's number is (714) 373-1986. Tell him i sent you and he'll hook you up. He plumbs, wires, and tunes nitrous sytems for a living. If you don't have him do the work for you he'll email you the wiring diagrams you need to do ANYTHING on your own. And if you can't find anyone to help you out let me know.

[trink408]

Thanks for the contact Dave.

I was not speaking of the NOS controllers, I worded that poorly. I meant the electric equipment to simply hook up the solenoids, switches, and relays. I was looking at units that have everything built in so you can just run wires for the solenoids and accessories right into a main electrical box. As I mentioned I'm not really good with relays and electrical systems, so I want an easy system to run all the wires and make everything work together.

[QTRMILE]

Great thread. More tidbits of info to file away in my brain for later :)

Its great to see the banana running so well. I've put a lot of hours in on helping Dennis on that car. It truly is an incredible car, and it sounds like you've only made it better.

[trink408]

Its great to see the banana running so well. I've put a lot of hours in on helping Dennis on that car. It truly is an incredible car, and it sounds like you've only made it better.


Thanks QTRMILE, I'm just hoping to run in the 9's and drive the car on the street. All we have around the Green Bay area are fast Chevrolet's and Mopar's. I don't know of a Ford that runs faster than mine right now, if their is whoever owns it should come down to car night on Wednesday nights. I get tired of hearing these guys trash talk Ford's.

Dennis just sent me a link to an article you posted on installing the cage in his car. I'm glad you guys had that done already, and it looks great too.

Dennis mentioned your name to me a while back, but I did not realize that you actually helped Dennis build this car. So far the car is great, and I can't wait to get it out next year.

Finding sites like this one is a huge help as well, hopefully by picking the brains of all these experienced racers and tuners I can get this thing to run its potential. I never knew all these sites existed until I bought the car, and it has been a great learning tool (and its pretty dam fun)

What tracks do you race at QTRMILE?

[QTRMILE]

Well Dennis did most everything all on his own. He is one of my best friends (was a groomsman in my wedding,) so I pitched in here and there. I wouldn't even want to venture a guess as to the hours he had wrapped up in that car...

I live in the Quad Cities right now, so Cordova is real close. I also like to race at CFR (Cedar Falls) as its only a few miles from Dennis' house and several friends race there too. Its worth the drive for me to get to race with my buddies. I've run at Earlvile near Dubuque a few times, that is a NICE track! But very very busy as I understand it. Greg keeps inviting me up to GLD, and one of these days I'll make it up that way.