I can't drive

[Fatstang]

I don't know how to get my car into the 13's. I know i have the power but so far this year, i haven't come close. The question is what rpm to shift at? my Dyno numbers are 250rwhp @ 4800 and 290rwt @ 4000. Reving to 6000 won't help. Last year with 3.73's i cut a 14.07 @ 99. Now i have 4.30 gears and my best so far this early season is 14.5 @ 98! I have street tires and Nitto's will be coming soon on some 15x8 Prostars. Even on street tires, it is possible to cut a 13, but i can't. FYI, I don't power shift either. I can't drive, i am so frustrated :mad:

[347 LX]

What are you 60's? Those hp numbers should solidly put you into the 13's. All you need to do is get a good launch, and not miss a gear and you should have your 13's.

[Fatstang]

My best all time 60' was 2.06. I ranged today from 2.2-2.4.

[jdsgallops]

You typically want to shift 500 rpm after hp peak. I would venture to guess the 4.30's are hurting more than helping as a typical 3.73/5 speed car should trap about 5000rpm in your et/mph range. You are now pulling way past your hp peak.

[Jim]

Slicks!!

[Fatstang]

Well some Nitto's are in my near future. I'll try shifting around 5300-5600 next time and see what happens i guess.

[Ghost]

You typically want to shift 500 rpm after hp peak. I would venture to guess the 4.30's are hurting more than helping as a typical 3.73/5 speed car should trap about 5000rpm in your et/mph range. You are now pulling way past your hp peak.

that holds true in a 5.0 4.30s are the best gear for a n/a 2v mod motor
his problem is all traction
he is spinning hard off the line and in the 1-2 shift
he may have peak power at 4800 but it holds and does not drop that much untill 5700 unlike the 5.0 when it drops like a rock after peak(in stock head,intake,cam)

plus the d/a yesterday was over 2000+ above sea level at mid day when he left and the best it got before I left was 1977 above sea level

the weather was more like late june and july type are

[jdsgallops]

Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Even full on race cars use that shifting theory. Ideally you want to cross the traps at your peak hp. If we were talking about a 4v motor making more power upstairs I would agree. It may not fall off as much as a 5.0 but fact of the matter is your car will not accelerate as hard after power peak. Density altitude may have been worse but MPH shows power being made and with the 4.30's he is trapping lower, meaning he is using less power.

[Ghost]

Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Even full on race cars use that shifting theory. Ideally you want to cross the traps at your peak hp. If we were talking about a 4v motor making more power upstairs I would agree. It may not fall off as much as a 5.0 but fact of the matter is your car will not accelerate as hard after power peak. Density altitude may have been worse but MPH shows power being made and with the 4.30's he is trapping lower, meaning he is using less power.


that may be true then explain why the fastest mod motor cars are running 4.30(n/a) and im talking cars with bolt ons

and 1 that is most know bill p ran a 12.8 with 260 rwhp shifting at 6k with 4.30s and is running 11.9s now with a bolt on 2v mod motor the only thing in the motor done is cams

and was running 12.2-12.3 range without the cams

[Ghost]

Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Even full on race cars use that shifting theory. Ideally you want to cross the traps at your peak hp. If we were talking about a 4v motor making more power upstairs I would agree. It may not fall off as much as a 5.0 but fact of the matter is your car will not accelerate as hard after power peak. Density altitude may have been worse but MPH shows power being made and with the 4.30's he is trapping lower, meaning he is using less power.


and the funny thing if that held true then my 4.10s would be to much cause im going through the traps at 5600


and yes it does make a diff . if he can carry his power out with out it dropping then it will not hurt his times that much

now if he losses 40hp from 5500-6000 then yes it would be a big deal but he does not maybe 10so carrying out 4th is not going to hurt him

now going to 6000 in his car maybe over kill but you also have to look at the fact he has added breathing mods since being dynoed his power can and will move

[Ghost]

1 more thing I found mid day when he was still the d/a was almost 3000 ft so yes that will cause the mph to be off

look at gregs times mid day he times ranged from mid 13-low 14s and his mph was down around 102-103
when in good air last year ran a 13.2@105

[Ghost]

1 more thing I found mid day when he was still the d/a was almost 3000 ft so yes that will cause the mph to be off

look at gregs times mid day he times ranged from mid 13-low 14s and his mph was down around 102-103
when in good air last year ran a 13.2@105

your from fl. you should know what its like to run in 80 weather with the humid around 100% and bar around 30.14 and the track being 715 not 50 above sea level and thats the air we all were running in yesterday

[Fatstang]

and the funny thing if that held true then my 4.10s would be to much cause im going through the traps at 5600


and yes it does make a diff . if he can carry his power out with out it dropping then it will not hurt his times that much

now if he losses 40hp from 5500-6000 then yes it would be a big deal but he does not maybe 10so carrying out 4th is not going to hurt him

now going to 6000 in his car maybe over kill but you also have to look at the fact he has added breathing mods since being dynoed his power can and will move

My car peaks at 4850 and i lose maybe 10rwhp all the way to 6200 according to my dyno sheet. So it doesn't really have a dip in the performance.

[jdsgallops]

Yep your exactly right. I know EXACTLY how it is to run in those conditions. I also know that MPH can stay relatively constant in those conditions from times I was at WIR with my old car and would run the same ET and MPH with a different tune. Weather will affect a cars performance, no doubt, but IMO not enough that you are going to see large changes in your ET.

Go back to a carb for a moment. Holley recommends 1 jet size change for every 35 degrees temp change. That means you would likely use the same jet on a run in 50* weather as 75* weather. Computers can adjust even better than this, but it goes to show how much you really need something to change for a dramatic effect in power to happen. I would be happy to run at a 3000 da. The times on my car now were run in weather that was high 80's with heat lightning in the background.

[jdsgallops]

that may be true then explain why the fastest mod motor cars are running 4.30(n/a) and im talking cars with bolt ons

and 1 that is most know bill p ran a 12.8 with 260 rwhp shifting at 6k with 4.30s and is running 11.9s now with a bolt on 2v mod motor the only thing in the motor done is cams

and was running 12.2-12.3 range without the cams


I assure you there is more to the story. I recently put fox long tubes and h pipe on my car. Didn't run into very many problems either(just a little tight on the steering shaft). Other people have tried since then, at least partially based on my positive experience and have trouble. Why? Well I also installed a tremec at the same time which locates the clutch fork in a different position, which allows for the drivers side to clear properly. So what am I trying to say? Unless your car is absolutely identical to what you are comparing it to all comparisions are off. The fast cars are fast for a reason, they don't tell all their secerts.

[Greg@GLD]

Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Even full on race cars use that shifting theory. Ideally you want to cross the traps at your peak hp. If we were talking about a 4v motor making more power upstairs I would agree. It may not fall off as much as a 5.0 but fact of the matter is your car will not accelerate as hard after power peak. Density altitude may have been worse but MPH shows power being made and with the 4.30's he is trapping lower, meaning he is using less power.


Hmm... I drove a NMRA "Factory Stock" class car yesterday and it has 4.56's John. So does Jeff Schmell's F/S car (currently in third place in the points) and Bob Cosby's F/S Cobra has 4.56's (he is currently in 1st!)

All these are modulars. 4.56's are best for drag racing...

EDIT: I need to read better. All these are 4V. Nevermind...

[Greg@GLD]

1 more thing I found mid day when he was still the d/a was almost 3000 ft so yes that will cause the mph to be off

look at gregs times mid day he times ranged from mid 13-low 14s and his mph was down around 102-103
when in good air last year ran a 13.2@105

your from fl. you should know what its like to run in 80 weather with the humid around 100% and bar around 30.14 and the track being 715 not 50 above sea level and thats the air we all were running in yesterday

Ahem... "low 14's" no. Those were passes where I blew it trying experiments with the launch. You don't count those. I ran strong mid-13's... ;)
Ended up in the low 13's again with several 13.40's yesterday.

[jdsgallops]

EDIT: I need to read better. All these are 4V. Nevermind...

Exactly Greg if the car was a 4v then 4.30's would be a very good choice. IMO 4.30's on a 2v are overkill, unless you cammed it.

[Ghost]

Exactly Greg if the car was a 4v then 4.30's would be a very good choice. IMO 4.30's on a 2v are overkill, unless you cammed it.

try telling that to the fastest mods motors
running 12.0-11.7

it is not over kill buit then again every shop and 5.0 owner told that 4.10s were overkill for anything but a full drag car

and yes they are overkill on the tires and have no traction till 3rd gear is going to cause a low mph hour and yes a the 3000 sea level drop some I was down by over 2.5 mph and when the weather started to cool down I picked back up 2 mph of it but was still down

now the fastest his car has trapped (ever) was 99 with 3.73 and in bad weather and 4.30s he trapped at 98 so tell where is this big lose in performance that your talking about

yes his car slowed down with the 4.30s :shifter: :shifter: its called no traction

he has only ran 1 14.0 before that it was mid 14s he is still learning to drive the car at the track


no flame ment but unless you own and mod a mod motor car and have seen what they like and dont like then how can you give the right adivse

it is a know fact in the mod motor world that for a 2v N/A 3.73s SUCK!!!!!
4.10s are ok 4.30s are the way to go

[Ghost]

Exactly Greg if the car was a 4v then 4.30's would be a very good choice. IMO 4.30's on a 2v are overkill, unless you cammed it.
if his car was a 4v then 4.30s would SUCK thats why everyone uses 4.56s and up

[Ghost]

Ahem... "low 14's" no. Those were passes where I blew it trying experiments with the launch. You don't count those. I ran strong mid-13's... ;)
Ended up in the low 13's again with several 13.40's yesterday.


greg
I was using the 14s of how the weather was bad and that everyone that day was having some bad not saying the mach was down that much on power.

and I seen the 13.4 and that was right about the time the air was cooling down and my mph was on the way back up

[jdsgallops]

try telling that to the fastest mods motors
running 12.0-11.7

Once again it goes back to the total combo. So unless, as I have already stated, his combo is EXACTLY like those you are comparing to the comparision is not valid. A simple tire diameter difference could make all the difference in the world. A 4.30 with a 28" tire will act like a 3.90 gear with 26" tires.


and yes they are overkill on the tires and have no traction till 3rd gear is going to cause a low mph hour

now the fastest his car has trapped (ever) was 99 with 3.73 and in bad weather and 4.30s he trapped at 98 so tell where is this big lose in performance that your talking about


This is all I need to know about this conversation. It is a proven fact that tire spin will actually increase the mph on a given run. The higher tire speed causes the higher MPH. This exact thing has been proven with my car at the track. My highest MPH is not from my best ET or 60ft run.

So please explain to me how performance can decrease when going to the "best" gear for a 2v, yet you trap at a lower speed and don't gain anything in ET? Your weather arguement isn't cutting it. If the gear was the "best" it should have offset the worse weather conditions.

4V motors make peak power around 6K and run 4.56's(which will put you through the traps about 6k), but a 2v motor makes peak power at 4800 and should run 4.30's. Something doesn't make sense there. Go ahead and say I don't know anything about mod motors all you want. All engines regardless of if they are OHV, OHC, have a blue oval, a bowtie, or a prancing horse, or are 4,8 or 12 cylinders are all the same. They pump air in and out and respond to the same modifications the same way.

[Ghost]

Once again it goes back to the total combo. So unless, as I have already stated, his combo is EXACTLY like those you are comparing to the comparision is not valid. A simple tire diameter difference could make all the difference in the world. A 4.30 with a 28" tire will act like a 3.90 gear with 26" tires.



This is all I need to know about this conversation. It is a proven fact that tire spin will actually increase the mph on a given run. The higher tire speed causes the higher MPH. This exact thing has been proven with my car at the track. My highest MPH is not from my best ET or 60ft run.

So please explain to me how performance can decrease when going to the "best" gear for a 2v, yet you trap at a lower speed and don't gain anything in ET? Your weather arguement isn't cutting it. If the gear was the "best" it should have offset the worse weather conditions.

4V motors make peak power around 6K and run 4.56's(which will put you through the traps about 6k), but a 2v motor makes peak power at 4800 and should run 4.30's. Something doesn't make sense there. Go ahead and say I don't know anything about mod motors all you want. All engines regardless of if they are OHV, OHC, have a blue oval, a bowtie, or a prancing horse, or are 4,8 or 12 cylinders are all the same. They pump air in and out and respond to the same modifications the same way.

I will say this one last time TRACTION
the guys I was speaking of are using 26in tires and less bolt on parts but they have traction . if your spinning through the first 3 gears then you times and mph are going to suck
plain and simple

im done with this you have your thoughts on this and I mine and a whole lot of others

do a poll on any major mod motor site and ask what the best gears for a n/a 2v and you will get a 90% 4.30 and 10% 4.10

and I think bob cosby is running 4.88s now so if 4.56 were the best then why would he switch

[jdsgallops]

Once again you show how clueless you are. Ever notice that when you bolt a set of slicks on a car it runs a quicker ET but at a lower MPH? As I keep saying but you don't get, unless the cars are identical saying 4.30's are the best is meaning less. :rolleyes: If the guy's you read about run a 26" tire, and it is a slick or Et street, you also have growth issues to deal with that you will not on a radial tire car. And considering the stock tire diameter on a mustang is under 25", your comparison holds no water. You see it is not the ratio in the carrier that matters but the effective ratio that does. Keep racing what you read, ricer.

[Greg@GLD]

John, do you think you can make your points without being rude and insulting? Come on man, this isn't cool at ALL. People can disagree on tech issues, no need to be so unfriendly. Steve and Tony are both great guys, and you and me have been friends a long time, this is no way for FORD BROTHERS to be interacting. :(

Tony didn't insult you, he called you out on your points, so all you need do is answer them with your best info.

[jdsgallops]

this is no way for FORD BROTHERS to be interacting. :(


Excuse my intolerance of people who think they know everything/don't want to hear what other people have to say because they know they are right. Read what you say above. If we are all Ford brothers then one doesn't say "mod motors are different than 5.0's". Drag racing is a science just like anything else and has simple rules that are followed for peak performance. I have stated and restated those rules that apply here, in several different ways and examples for this one person to understand. Unfortunately he chooses to quote what others have acheived from information he has read in a magazine or online. I on the other hand have presented information that I have learned and applied how it is factual with experiences from my own car. I have every time slip logged of all passes I have made, the changes I made on those passes and studied them to help increase the performance of my car. Tolerance of such ignorance is not my personality, nor will it ever be from someone who refuses to listen or ask questions of anyones personal experience.

[Ghost]

Excuse my intolerance of people who think they know everything/don't want to hear what other people have to say because they know they are right. Read what you say above. If we are all Ford brothers then one doesn't say "mod motors are different than 5.0's". Drag racing is a science just like anything else and has simple rules that are followed for peak performance. I have stated and restated those rules that apply here, in several different ways and examples for this one person to understand. Unfortunately he chooses to quote what others have acheived from information he has read in a magazine or online. I on the other hand have presented information that I have learned and applied how it is factual with experiences from my own car. I have every time slip logged of all passes I have made, the changes I made on those passes and studied them to help increase the performance of my car. Tolerance of such ignorance is not my personality, nor will it ever be from someone who refuses to listen or ask questions of anyones personal experience.

I never and will never say or think that I know everything....

I do agree with you on some points but not on others the stock tires are 25.7 not under 25(he is not running the stock rear) and no the cars im speaking of are running d/r with a 275/40/17 tires(25.7)

why I bring up the point on the mod motor is cause it holds its power past its peak for awhile unlike the 5.0 where power drops off fast after peak(in stock form) I never dissed the 5.0 I loveed my 5.0s(all 3 of them)
and just for your info the modular motor 2vs do not all make peak power at 4800 mine makes peak at 5050.. what I am saying has been proven time and time again on many different combos from stock to rock

yes I agree you mph will go down if you cutting 1.6(just for say) 60' when you were getting say 1.8s but what am saying through the first 3 gears he is spinning the tires..

the the reason I know for a fact that its traction and this way

opening weekend
steve and I ran each other
on that pass we had almost the same 60' and we were dead even neither pulling untill he missed a gear and then I passed with me running a 13.5@101.5

now I understand your points and NO all these cars are not ones I have read about a lot I have seen in person and talked to the guys face to face.

its cool your trying to help but theres is no need to be like that I have not and would not ever bash you for any reason
I have based my opinion on what I have seen that works and you have yours there is nothing wrong with either

so with all being said I think this topic is done :thumbs_up

[Ghost]

John, do you think you can make your points without being rude and insulting? Come on man, this isn't cool at ALL. People can disagree on tech issues, no need to be so unfriendly. Steve and Tony are both great guys, and you and me have been friends a long time, this is no way for FORD BROTHERS to be interacting. :(

Tony didn't insult you, he called you out on your points, so all you need do is answer them with your best info.

greg
its not a big deal
I take what people say on the net with a grain of salt, well unless they know me cause I cant always get accross what I im trying to say while typing cause I suck at it :D

[347 LX]

it is a know fact in the mod motor world that for a 2v N/A 3.73s SUCK!!!!!4.10s are ok 4.30s are the way to go


I for one, happen to love my 3.73's and I have an automatic. I was getting upper 1.7 60's on spray and my e/t streets. I had a very small traction problem launching on the spray, ( maybe half of a revolution ) and with the 100 hp shot it seem to be the perfect gear for my car. I can't wait until I get my stall converter and turn those 1.7 60's into 1.5's. :rockon:

[Ghost]

I for one, happen to love my 3.73's and I have an automatic. I was getting upper 1.7 60's on spray and my e/t streets. I had a very small traction problem launching on the spray, ( maybe half of a revolution ) and with the 100 hp shot it seem to be the perfect gear for my car. I can't wait until I get my stall converter and turn those 1.7 60's into 1.5's. :rockon:

thats why I put n/a (all motor) you run 100 shot

[Fatstang]

Wow! Look at what i started here. :playnice: :beer:

[Ghost]

Wow! Look at what i started here. :playnice: :beer:

but dad
I dont want to play nice :D :beer:

[347 LX]

thats why I put n/a (all motor) you run 100 shot

I still occasionally run N/A, and on street tires get consistant 1.9 60's. Granted those aren't that great for 60' times, but for an automatic with a stock stall and street tires they aren't bad.